National Report Card

[GoldZ]

Sad, very sad. And yet, GT is expected to compete in D-I football. The President of the Institute was right in the late 60s as we withdrew from the SEC with wtte: Nobody and I mean nobody is attempting to do what Georgia Tech is in major college football. Still aren't imo. And yes, this is much more important than football.

https://www.creators.com/read/walter-williams

 

[ThomsonJacket]

The public education system doesn't teach anymore, it's nothing more than test preparation.

 

[00Burdell]

Its just like everything else these days - the penalty for being uneducated and/or lazy is being eliminated.

 

[GT flunkout]

The connection to Tech football is more than tenuous. Doesn't belong in the football forum.

We recruit and attract good guys for the most part. Be grateful for that.

 

[RamblinWreck92]

Well, for starters, teachers can't be too harsh on today's snowflakes or they'll get triggered and melt. Today's parents are to blame - they are far too protective of their children and try to insulate them from all of life's negativity. Which results in a a generation of ööööing idiot kids.

 

[ThisIsAtlanta]

The connection to Tech football is more than tenuous. Doesn't belong in the football forum.

We recruit and attract good guys for the most part. Be grateful for that.

I think that's what he's trying to point out. We have the highest athlete SAT in the NCAA, better than the student body average of some of the schools we compete with. We are part of a very small crowd of people rooting for student athletes. Most CFB fans are just rooting for athletes.

 

[DressCheeseSideSeaboard]

uga accepts student athletes who can’t read.

 

[coit]

I think that's what he's trying to point out. We have the highest athlete SAT in the NCAA, better than the student body average of some of the schools we compete with. We are part of a very small crowd of people rooting for student athletes. Most CFB fans are just rooting for athletes.

I'll allow it!

 

[Flywheel]

This is what you get when you make borrowing money for college possible with a pinky swear. Everyone wants to go, and colleges make room for them despite their unpreparedness because of the revenue. To keep them there, you have to make courses easier, and in the meantime colleges can raise the price of tuition with no fear of not filling their enrollment. They spend the money on water parks and attractions instead of education, because they know that's what draws more applicants.

Soon college degrees cost 3x what they did 20 years ago even adjusted for inflation, and yet have lost their value in the workforce. The irony is that now the construction industry is in crisis mode because there are no young people willing to learn skilled trades, and when the current generation of foremen and managers retire, there'll be no one to replace them.

We should probably just forgive all college debt. That'll cure this great injustice.

 

[ThisIsAtlanta]

This is what you get when you make borrowing money for college possible with a pinky swear. Everyone wants to go, and colleges make room for them despite their unpreparedness because of the revenue. To keep them there, you have to make courses easier, and in the meantime colleges can raise the price of tuition with no fear of not filling their enrollment. They spend the money on water parks and attractions instead of education, because they know that's what draws more applicants.

Soon college degrees cost 3x what they did 20 years ago even adjusted for inflation, and yet have lost their value in the workforce. The irony is that now the construction industry is in crisis mode because there are no young people willing to learn skilled trades, and when the current generation of foremen and managers retire, there'll be no one to replace them.

We should probably just forgive all college debt. That'll cure this great injustice.

It's what you get when you Griggs vs Duke Power.

 

[18in32]

This is what you get when you make borrowing money for college possible with a pinky swear. Everyone wants to go, and colleges make room for them despite their unpreparedness because of the revenue. To keep them there, you have to make courses easier, and in the meantime colleges can raise the price of tuition with no fear of not filling their enrollment. They spend the money on water parks and attractions instead of education, because they know that's what draws more applicants.

Soon college degrees cost 3x what they did 20 years ago even adjusted for inflation, and yet have lost their value in the workforce. The irony is that now the construction industry is in crisis mode because there are no young people willing to learn skilled trades, and when the current generation of foremen and managers retire, there'll be no one to replace them.

We should probably just forgive all college debt. That'll cure this great injustice.

I like the cut of your jib, in general, but two minor comments.

(1) Getting a new credit card is the equivalent of the pinkie swear – uncollateralized, dischargeable debt. Students loans aren't dischargeable, so it's a lifelong obligation you're taking on. That said, I agree the debt is probably issued too freely because (like happened with home mortgages a decade ago) there was a public policy in favor of pushing people into this type of expense.

(2) Not sure if you're serious or not, but forgiving college debt *would* help cure this problem. By making college loans dischargeable (not a one time amnesty, but going forward), it would reduce the likelihood of creditors issuing student loan debt to people who are going to have a hard time paying it back. That would keep people at the margin out of college, and it would keep people at the margin out of financial ruin. Those two thoughts don't go together in the current national debate which says every hairdresser should have a college degree.

 

[18in32]

It's what you get when you Griggs vs Duke Power.

Griggs is a bad decision for sure, but I think we can find some legal, political and policy choices of the past half-century that are more directly responsible for the problems he's complaining about. Here's a quote from the opinion:

The facts of this case demonstrate the inadequacy of broad and general testing devices, as well as the infirmity of using diplomas or degrees as fixed measures of capability. History is filled with examples of men and women who rendered highly effective performance without the conventional badges of accomplishment in terms of certificates, diplomas, or degrees. Diplomas and tests are useful servants, but Congress has mandated the common sense proposition that they are not to become masters of reality.

 

[ThisIsAtlanta]

Griggs is a bad decision for sure, but I think we can find some legal, political and policy choices of the past half-century that are more directly responsible for the problems he's complaining about.

I don't think that's so clear cut. Griggs is the direct reason for the popular wisdom that you need to get your college degree if you want to have a good life. While some college degrees, as they ever have, confer on their owners a mark of distinguished ability or knowledge which does directly improve your life, Griggs had the reverse effect on the margin. If you and a person with no degree apply to become a hairdresser, Griggs provides you with potential legal recourse against the company if they hire the person with no degree instead. It's probably pretty rare that anyone sues for this reason, but it's common enough to have changed corporate hiring policies all over the nation to force the hands of managers in some scenarios. The popular wisdom should really be that you need to get your college degree if you don't want to be ejected from the economy, because in many cases nobody will consider your skill set if your credentials don't make that justifiable, but you say tomato, etc.

Griggs is the underlying reason there's such a rush for the marginal students who have no interest in education whatsoever to get a college degree. Sure, there are federal loan programs and myriad other policies and laws that help them get there, but the whole problem really follows from the distortions created by Griggs. IMO, anyway.

 

[18in32]

I don't think that's so clear cut. Griggs is the direct reason for the popular wisdom that you need to get your college degree if you want to have a good life. While some college degrees, as they ever have, confer on their owners a mark of distinguished ability or knowledge which does directly improve your life, Griggs had the reverse effect on the margin. If you and a person with no degree apply to become a hairdresser, Griggs provides you with potential legal recourse against the company if they hire the person with no degree instead. It's probably pretty rare that anyone sues for this reason, but it's common enough to have changed corporate hiring policies all over the nation to force the hands of managers in some scenarios. The popular wisdom should really be that you need to get your college degree if you don't want to be ejected from the economy, because in many cases nobody will consider your skill set if your credentials don't make that justifiable, but you say tomato, etc.

Griggs is the underlying reason there's such a rush for the marginal students who have no interest in education whatsoever to get a college degree. Sure, there are federal loan programs and myriad other policies and laws that help them get there, but the whole problem really follows from the distortions created by Griggs. IMO, anyway.

I completely agree with the problem you're describing and the direction this idea has taken in our society. But I'm not super-clear on why you think Griggs did this?

Griggs said that employers could *not* rely on college degrees or other forms of aptitude or achievement testing as employment tests unless there was a clear business necessity for doing so. (The rule later became business justification instead of necessity.) The Court's reasoning was that because college degrees and high scores on aptitude or achievement testing are not as prevalent among blacks, requiring that when there was no business justification for it would have the effect of suppressing black employment in those jobs unnecessarily, and that was illegal under the Civil Rights Act.

The problem you're describing is real, but you're going to have to connect the dots for me to see how it's Griggs fault...?

 

[Flywheel]

I like the cut of your jib, in general, but two minor comments.

(1) Getting a new credit card is the equivalent of the pinkie swear – uncollateralized, dischargeable debt. Students loans aren't dischargeable, so it's a lifelong obligation you're taking on. That said, I agree the debt is probably issued too freely because (like happened with home mortgages a decade ago) there was a public policy in favor of pushing people into this type of expense.

(2) Not sure if you're serious or not, but forgiving college debt *would* help cure this problem. By making college loans dischargeable (not a one time amnesty, but going forward), it would reduce the likelihood of creditors issuing student loan debt to people who are going to have a hard time paying it back. That would keep people at the margin out of college, and it would keep people at the margin out of financial ruin. Those two thoughts don't go together in the current national debate which says every hairdresser should have a college degree.

Regarding #2, do you really think "forgiveness" of debt touted by the left would result in the banks losing out? We would all be bailing the banks out with taxes, and they'd carry on as usual. It happened in the mortgage crisis, which not surprisingly was also caused by public policy making it too easy for people to take on debt.

 

[ThisIsAtlanta]

I completely agree with the problem you're describing and the direction this idea has taken in our society. But I'm not super-clear on why you think Griggs did this?

Griggs said that employers could *not* rely on college degrees or other forms of aptitude or achievement testing as employment tests unless there was a clear business necessity for doing so. (The rule later became business justification instead of necessity.) The Court's reasoning was that because college degrees and high scores on aptitude or achievement testing are not as prevalent among blacks, requiring that when there was no business justification for it would have the effect of suppressing black employment in those jobs unnecessarily, and that was illegal under the Civil Rights Act.

The problem you're describing is real, but you're going to have to connect the dots for me to see how it's Griggs fault...?

I understood Griggs to have said the exact opposite thing. That's what you get when you're not a lawyer, I guess.

 

[GTCrew]

18, You need him to explain Griggs' effect?

Thats crazy. The effect is obvious, and history has proven it. When you cant use an aptitude test, you are forced to use a degree.

 

[johncu]

Excellent article. The use of graduation rate as any kind of metric is extremely destructive. It incentivizes schools to push kids through at all costs, which means directives that are passed down to teachers frequently focus much more on dragging the bottom group of kids along and forcing them to jump through just enough hoops to graduate.

Ultimately we have to figure out where the bar should be and then let kids fail when they don't reach it. That will NEVER happen when schools are judged and punished when kids choose not to do öööö.

 

[GoldZ]

This is what you get when you PC pass kids on to the next grade. We are now seeing the folly of such a brazen social engineering experiment gone bad.

It is directly applicable to Tech football. It is however a much more serious society issue than football.

 

[18in32]

I understood Griggs to have said the exact opposite thing. That's what you get when you're not a lawyer, I guess.

or

18, You need him to explain Griggs' effect? ¶ Thats crazy. The effect is obvious, and history has proven it. When you cant use an aptitude test, you are forced to use a degree.

The contrast is instructive. Which of these two posters is not a lawyer and knows it? And which is not a lawyer but thinks he is?

Crew, I welcome your efforts to explain the Griggs-effect to me. Once again, here's the direct quote from the opinion:

The facts of this case demonstrate the inadequacy of broad and general testing devices, as well as the infirmity of using diplomas or degrees as fixed measures of capability. History is filled with examples of men and women who rendered highly effective performance without the conventional badges of accomplishment in terms of certificates, diplomas, or degrees. Diplomas and tests are useful servants, but Congress has mandated the common sense proposition that they are not to become masters of reality.