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lonestarjacket
04-27-2009, 01:13 PM
How many of our fumbles were actually "caused" by the difficulties of the TO?

I remember one game then PJ was being interviewed at halftime about fumbles and the TO (implying they are a hazard of the offense.) We had a few fumbles in the first half; some were turnovers and othere we recovered. PJ sneered and pointed out that most of our fumble porblems in that game had nothing to do with running the TO. They were on special teams or on the center to QB exchange.

I think PJ said WTTE that "there is no offense that works when you can't get the ball to your QB."

So, how much of our fumbling problem can we blame on TO difficulty last year and how much was unrelated?

Guesses are welcome unless someone kept REALLY good stats last year.

beej67
04-27-2009, 01:21 PM
Guess: approximately a third of our turnovers were due to trip option issues in 08, be that center-QB-exchange, mesh exchange, or bad pitch.

JWE37
04-27-2009, 02:06 PM
*5 yrd line against Uva that would have put us up 21-10.
*~30 yrd line against VT that allowed them a TD with seconds left in the first half, we should have been up 9-7 instead of down 14-9.

Those 2 fumbles arguably cost us both games.

I would say that mesh fumbles are part of doing business the way we do it. Hopefully for 2009 we minimize it and it doesn't cost us a game.

lonestarjacket
04-27-2009, 02:56 PM
Guess: approximately a third of our turnovers were due to trip option issues in 08, be that center-QB-exchange, mesh exchange, or bad pitch.

How is center-QB exchange considered a TO issue?

WracerX
04-27-2009, 03:06 PM
How is center-QB exchange considered a TO issue?

Not, TO but it could be system related. I'm pretty sure that our center and QB are in a much lower squat in this system.

I also think most of our QB's have come from systems that ran primarily shotgun formations.

BuzzCzar
04-27-2009, 03:09 PM
TO = Triple Option
TO = Turn Over

coincidence???

beej67
04-27-2009, 03:17 PM
How is center-QB exchange considered a TO issue?

If the first thing you're doing with the ball once you have it in your hands is sticking it sideways in someone else's belly for a quick hitter, then pulling it out or not, then running the 3O can influence fumbles on the exchange. Especially since everyone's footwork has to sorta fit together on the play, to make sure nobody's tripping over anyone else. It's really pretty complicated what goes on for the first two seconds of our triple option plays. If you want to boggle your mind, go back and watch them in slomo on the DVR, it's really pretty wild.

At least that's how I see it. I've never played QB, so I wouldn't really know personally.

gnats67
04-27-2009, 03:27 PM
All good responses but my perspective was that THE KILLER was the exchange between the QB and the diving B. Somewhat of a "I got it! No you got it!" scenario. The rest were grabs and a lack of concentration as the play developed.

GTD
04-27-2009, 04:15 PM
Typical center snaps and holds a split second to be sure of the exchange while almost defensively beginning to block, then once QB really has the ball, the center fully releases the ball to move on with blocking. The center has to move forward much faster in our offense than most others, so we're more likely to have problems.

Typical RB comes by the QB with inside elbow up and a predetermined knowledge of whether they're getting the ball or not, so they then vice clamp down on the ball at the point of handoff. In an option mesh, there's a loose clamp/close down on the ball until the decision is made, typically by a slight push of ball into gut/chest by the QB as the signal that yes, you're getting it this time.

Both of these exchanges are more difficult in option football, and require everyone works together with higher precision and speed than in non-option attacks.

As I recall though (vaugue and hungover at best), most of our fumble problems last year were either on the edge pitching and catching, or getting drilled, sometimes blindsided, by their DL in our backfield.

That tells me better blocking helps reduce turnovers, but the blocking too is different and arguably more difficult in our offense - chops, cuts, 1 on 1 mobile open field blocks, Marcus Wright vs their LB, etc.

So I'd say yes, the challenges of the 3O contribute to TOs (BuzzCzar inspired unique acronyms).

Particularly in year 1 learning this attack, a player is trying to make decisions fast, and may quasi panic when pressured, causing the TO. The good thing is, the more comfortable you get in this attack, the more the game 'slows down', and the less you drop the ball. Eventually it's just natural to you, while it's still nearly as fast as ever for your opponent that only works against it 1 week per year. The results should be more scenes of JD cutting right and the ugag safety falling on his fat mutt tail. Can't wait for year 2. GO JACKETS!!!

lonestarjacket
04-28-2009, 06:20 PM
So it seems that while getting better at running the 3O will help reduce fumbles the main thing we need to do is reduce the fumbles unrelated to the 3O.

ncjacket
04-28-2009, 07:07 PM
So it seems that while getting better at running the 3O will help reduce fumbles the main thing we need to do is reduce the fumbles unrelated to the 3O.
To me the biggest issue is the center/QB exchange. I don't know any way to tell how many we had last year but it seems to me like it was pretty high.

Overall, we had more TOs per play last year than either of the last two, one about every 29.7 plays. For 2007 and 2006 it was 39.9 and 40.6 respectively. We also gained 6 yards per play versus 5.5 and 5.2, driven by the high number of big plays, ergo the high risk/high reward nature of the offense. Ints were down and fumbles up obviously.

I expect that to be our pattern, in that we will fumble more than we used to due to the offense. But fewer INTs should balance that. But what we can't do is put it on the ground on something as simple as the snap. If we fix that, the others will generally take care of themselves IMO.

Yukonwreck
04-28-2009, 09:31 PM
If the first thing you're doing with the ball once you have it in your hands is sticking it sideways in someone else's belly for a quick hitter, then pulling it out or not, then running the 3O can influence fumbles on the exchange. Especially since everyone's footwork has to sorta fit together on the play, to make sure nobody's tripping over anyone else. It's really pretty complicated what goes on for the first two seconds of our triple option plays. If you want to boggle your mind, go back and watch them in slomo on the DVR, it's really pretty wild.

At least that's how I see it. I've never played QB, so I wouldn't really know personally.

But the Wishbone, the belly series, the Flexbone, all utilized that first movement into the belly of the up back. Obviously it is a skill that can be mastered. I have a lot of confidence in the teaching ability of this staff. In fact, of the 3 or four key functions of a coaching staff, i.e., teaching, motivating, recruiting, and managing, I'd say their number one talent is teaching.

Yukonwreck
04-28-2009, 09:33 PM
*5 yrd line against Uva that would have put us up 21-10.
*~30 yrd line against VT that allowed them a TD with seconds left in the first half, we should have been up 9-7 instead of down 14-9.

Those 2 fumbles arguably cost us both games.

I would say that mesh fumbles are part of doing business the way we do it. Hopefully for 2009 we minimize it and it doesn't cost us a game.

Is there no slack to be cut for a team in the first year of the system---no, of mostly pro set players in the first year of the system???

JWE37
04-29-2009, 02:20 PM
Is there no slack to be cut for a team in the first year of the system---no, of mostly pro set players in the first year of the system???

I was actually very pleased with last seasons results for the very reason you mention. I was just stating the facts to the OP bro.