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TechSBP
03-18-2009, 05:42 PM
After years of cheating F$U got caught. They received a slap on the wrist. But F$U's president suggests that it isn't fair. Instead, he suggest that committing fraud to frame a student athlete at another school is less serious

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_college_fsu/2009/03/tk-wetherell-goes-off-the-script.html


Here's the quote from the article:

“I mean, I figured out how to beat Florida,” Wetherell said. “I told them the other day – I’ve got the deal, man. I got the deal. We’re going to send a graduate assistant down to write a [paper] for Tebow, and go ahead and turn it in.


“And then we’re not going to tell anybody, until about the 15th of August. And we’re going to say, Oh, by the way, look what happened. Urban [Meyer] doesn’t know anything about this – he’s not involved. And the letter according to the NCAA – you think a violation occurred, not that it did occur, you think it occurred, you’ve got to sit him.


“Well, we’ve got the proof, we’ve the [paper], we’ve got the one he turned in, we’ve got the one the graduate assistant [did]. He violated the rules. He’s ineligible … now, they can redshirt him next year, and they may need to do that because they’re going to need a quarterback, anyway, in two years and that may not be a bad idea. But – that’s just not right. I mean, it’s just not right. That’s what’s the problem – it’s just flat wrong.”

GTSaxophone
03-18-2009, 05:44 PM
Soooooooo much fail...

I can see their point way out in the distance, but really, there's no reason for them to even come out and say something like this. There just isn't. There's no good that can come of that whatsoever.

beej67
03-18-2009, 05:47 PM
FSU hired Lane Kiffen to be their President?

law_bee
03-18-2009, 05:47 PM
I am speechless. I can tell the pressure is building in Tally. I would expect some big changes soon.

GGGT
03-18-2009, 06:37 PM
:eek5:

Unbelievable.

techfowl
03-18-2009, 07:07 PM
how old is this guy - that's not the talk track of a professional...

gth816f
03-18-2009, 07:30 PM
Wow. He got one part completely right though, assuming he was referring to what he just talked about doing:

But – that’s just not right. I mean, it’s just not right. That’s what’s the problem – it’s just flat wrong.I guess he never considered that, in that situation, Tebow should say no to the GA writing his paper, and if he said yes, then he deserved to be suspended? Unless they are saying secretly turn it in for him, but that would come out immediately when the teacher received two papers "from" him.

BuzzMD
03-18-2009, 07:48 PM
The press secretary actually had to shut the president up -- tell him to sit down and press conference is over. He was actually cussing in the conference as well. Not a good thing.

gtyellowjackets
03-18-2009, 08:49 PM
what a loser...

Allen Koholic
03-19-2009, 08:48 AM
Does he somehow think that someone framing another player is on the same level as massive numbers of your own athletes cheating? Really?

He needs to shut up and take his medicine. It is only by the grace of God and the number of zeros their TV contracts pull in that the NCAA didn't really drop the hammer on that program for this. Whining like a spoiled bitch really only accomplishes one thing, and that's making him look like a whiny, spoiled bitch.

The sad thing is, FSU is a joke school, and they seem to believe that their athletics somehow lend credibility to the school itself, rather then vice-versa, as it should be.

bellyseries
03-19-2009, 09:12 AM
One thing to say such a thing at the Club, with buddies, over drinks; entirely another at a press conference or an interview. The guy should resign, except that he seems to reflect the spirit of the school pretty accurately.

GT65_UGA89
03-19-2009, 09:32 AM
The Criminoles were caught and now they must suffer the consequences. This is a typical reaction of so many common criminals --instead of focusing on what went wrong in his house, this president wants to throw stones at another house with his 'here's how we could incriminate Tim Tebow over at UF' rhetoric.

SHUT THE HE77 UP and accept your punishment. Where is TechGator, because someone needs to call this guy out for what he is --a douchebag!

BuzzCzar
03-19-2009, 09:49 AM
dispicable behavior for a university president

the fact is that:
either
1) the FB coaches and other coaches had some clue as to what was going on;
or
2) they SHOULD HAVE known what was going on, suggesting lack of control
or
3) they recruited the type of atheles that are either unable or unwilling to adhere to clear university policy

any and all of which is THEIR FAULT.

they should be happy not to get a worse punishment, but of course the way to deal with the NCAA is to complain loudly, get high$ donors involved and create a publicity problem for the NCAA so that they give in.

Tech thought it could just play by facts and reality, they didnt realize (through inexperience) that all it takes is a moster flop.

Allen Koholic
03-19-2009, 10:02 AM
http://www.tampabay.com/sports/college/article985202.ece

St. Bobby has decided to float down upon the wings of angels and grace us all with his benevolent voice on the matter. And he, of course, sounds like a tool while doing so. He manages to compare a huge cheating ring to going five miles over the speed limit. They got a slap on the wrist. And we all know that the NCAA will give the wins back. I'm sure they're just "good kids" though. Seriously, if you need to cheat in an online music course, then perhaps you aren't college material.

Allen Koholic
03-19-2009, 10:07 AM
http://www.tampabay.com/specials/2009/PDFs/Wetherell.pdf

More amusement. Tools. I especially like the part where he claims that losing three scholarships is a harsh punishment.

gth816f
03-19-2009, 10:25 AM
Seriously, if you need to cheat in an online music course, then perhaps you aren't college material.

To be fair, probably 75%+ of the kids in that class were cheating. That sort of thing happens all the time in college, especially when there is some sort of online assessment.

Not that it makes it any less of an NCAA offense for the football team to be doing it.

BuzzCzar
03-19-2009, 10:45 AM
To be fair, probably 75%+ of the kids in that class were cheating. That sort of thing happens all the time in college, especially when there is some sort of online assessment.

Not that it makes it any less of an NCAA offense for the football team to be doing it.

then i would say that 75% of the students at FSU should figure out what they really want to do and not just "go to college" as the next step after high school. this is what makes "universities" into high schools.

we have totally lost the meaning of going to university in this country. you should go to pursue something, not to "get a degree"; i would say most kids at Tech have a genuine curiosity about things. but to be in college and have an undeclared major? i just dont get it. if more people found a profession, a vocation, started a small business, had a goal, had a vision and not just following "what people should do" it would vastly improve our country.

Allen Koholic
03-19-2009, 10:57 AM
then i would say that 75% of the students at FSU should figure out what they really want to do and not just "go to college" as the next step after high school. this is what makes "universities" into high schools.

we have totally lost the meaning of going to university in this country. you should go to pursue something, not to "get a degree"; i would say most kids at Tech have a genuine curiosity about things. but to be in college and have an undeclared major? i just dont get it. if more people found a profession, a vocation, started a small business, had a goal, had a vision and not just following "what people should do" it would vastly improve our country.I don't 100% agree with this. There's nothing wrong with going to college to determine what you want to do with your life, as getting a degree is essential to life if you ask me. My problem is that schools like FSU, a glorified community college with D1 football program, are considered fine universities, when in reality they're a sad joke. If these kids can get a degree from FSU, then I could go, spend a majority of my time huffing gold paint and hanging out with Tallahassee's finest trailer park hookers and still graduate on the Dean's List. The problem is that the school itself is a joke, and its not an isolated issue. The importance of a college education has risen to the point where schools will dumb themselves down to allow kids to graduate, rather then force kids to actually learn something and apply themselves. This turned them into high schools. Same reason that grade inflation is such a problem. A college diploma should be an honor earned through hard work and sacrifice, it's not a right guaranteed when you're paid up on the Bursar's bills. Sadly, too many people think it's the latter.

So, my only point of disagreement is with your statement that uncdeclared majors are bad. I guess I still believe that some people don't know exactly what they want to do and are hoping to find it in college. I agree though, that college is pretty much a joke now.

BuzzCzar
03-19-2009, 11:15 AM
I don't 100% agree with this. There's nothing wrong with going to college to determine what you want to do with your life, as getting a degree is essential to life if you ask me. My problem is that schools like FSU, a glorified community college with D1 football program, are considered fine universities, when in reality they're a sad joke. If these kids can get a degree from FSU, then I could go, spend a majority of my time huffing gold paint and hanging out with Tallahassee's finest trailer park hookers and still graduate on the Dean's List. The problem is that the school itself is a joke, and its not an isolated issue. The importance of a college education has risen to the point where schools will dumb themselves down to allow kids to graduate, rather then force kids to actually learn something and apply themselves. This turned them into high schools. Same reason that grade inflation is such a problem. A college diploma should be an honor earned through hard work and sacrifice, it's not a right guaranteed when you're paid up on the Bursar's bills. Sadly, too many people think it's the latter.

So, my only point of disagreement is with your statement that uncdeclared majors are bad. I guess I still believe that some people don't know exactly what they want to do and are hoping to find it in college. I agree though, that college is pretty much a joke now.

why should they pay $20,000 a year to "figure it out"? and at the same time de-value the college experience for everyone else? they can go to europe and figure it out while hiking, or go work on a fishing ship in alaska and make $20k instead (and maybe die) and perhaps realize that they like biology

im not saying that someone is an EE and then realizes that they really want to do theoretical and move to physics or something, that is understandable, but having NO IDEA what you want to learn in college kind of makes it difficult to decide where to go. Hot chicks and good party town should not, imo be the criteria. as such, until you have a decent idea of what you are interested in, you have no business wallowing around campus trying to find yourself

that is just my take. then again, i think this country sorely needs to develop its vocational training and schooling capabilities so that a college education is NOT required for jobs that dont really need one, like any technician or someone that is an expert on tuning bicycles.

i dont feel that it is "better" to be good at something traditionally taught in university over some technical skill, like being an excellent mechanic, just different

we need to realize that treating everyone the same, leads to mediocre everything

/rant

gth816f
03-19-2009, 11:46 AM
then i would say that 75% of the students at FSU should figure out what they really want to do and not just "go to college" as the next step after high school. this is what makes "universities" into high schools.

Who said undeclared major? Universities make you take tons of classes unrelated to your interests. I was a CS major my entire time at Tech, and yet I ended up having to take chemistry, biology, psychology, and history of art, among other classes. There were many students in these classes in the same situation as me, which is probably the same situation as most of the kids in that music class. That leads to cheating, because honestly, most of the people in those classes didn't care about the spellings of the names of ancient artists. I don't think that reflects on me not knowing what I want to do with my life or going to college just as the next step after high school.

The reality of the system right now is that you go to school to get the grades and the degree, not really because you are interested in the classes. Hopefully you are very interested in the field related to your degree, but that is very often different from the classes you have to take.

BuzzCzar
03-19-2009, 12:45 PM
nm

BuzzCzar
03-19-2009, 12:47 PM
Who said undeclared major? Universities make you take tons of classes unrelated to your interests. I was a CS major my entire time at Tech, and yet I ended up having to take chemistry, biology, psychology, and history of art, among other classes. There were many students in these classes in the same situation as me, which is probably the same situation as most of the kids in that music class. That leads to cheating, because honestly, most of the people in those classes didn't care about the spellings of the names of ancient artists. I don't think that reflects on me not knowing what I want to do with my life or going to college just as the next step after high school.

The reality of the system right now is that you go to school to get the grades and the degree, not really because you are interested in the classes. Hopefully you are very interested in the field related to your degree, but that is very often different from the classes you have to take.

again, this is because the "core" classes are not taught in high school as they should so you use the first two years to take all kinds of stuff you may not be interested in. i advocate not having all the "weed out" classes at all, you can already avoid them as a serious student by taking AP classes and exempting

as far as choosing elective that you have no interest in to get an easy grade, thats your own fault, dont blame the school if you then cheat because YOU dont care. they dont force you to take history of art, you chose it over Astrophysics and Stellar Evolution, over Film Making, and Basketball. suffer the consequences. you can take all real classes if you chose to, it just might take you longer to graduate

i think the anecdotal requirement is other areas of learning for all students to make them "well rounded" is a bunch of useless crap, because it creates situations as you cite. that is not the historical university mission, well, it is but it is expected that you already know that and do physical activity and read about things and are generally a "man of the world"

i acknowledge that the current system is for idiots getting degrees without necessarily learning anything, thats why i think its a problem

look how far we are falling behind similar societies in education

TechSBP
03-19-2009, 12:53 PM
To be fair, probably 75%+ of the kids in that class were cheating. That sort of thing happens all the time in college, especially when there is some sort of online assessment.

Not that it makes it any less of an NCAA offense for the football team to be doing it.


Look--that just makes it worse. That means there was probably systematic cheating in other classes.

Tech works hard to detect cheating. And I was at Tech the last time there was a big problem. It wasn't pretty, but Tech dealt with it and didn't excuse it (see CS cheating scandal back in 02?). And we did it the right way--the focus was on helping people understand why cheating is wrong through their punishments, because many of those involved had no idea that cheating was wrong (I'm not kidding).

Good schools and good people do not tolerate academic cheaters.

So let's add F$U and cheating to the things that folks are going to defend against criticism. They'll fit right in with the AUC.

Allen Koholic
03-19-2009, 01:59 PM
Look--that just makes it worse. That means there was probably systematic cheating in other classes.

Tech works hard to detect cheating. And I was at Tech the last time there was a big problem. It wasn't pretty, but Tech dealt with it and didn't excuse it (see CS cheating scandal back in 02?). And we did it the right way--the focus was on helping people understand why cheating is wrong through their punishments, because many of those involved had no idea that cheating was wrong (I'm not kidding).

I was in that class. The problem there was that too many kids were in way over their heads and figured that borrowing code from one another was perfectly acceptable. It didn't help that the language they were teaching at the time was a God awful mess. I had no problems with how they handled it, mostly because I wasn't cheating. I pulled plenty of all nighters for that awful course and I figured that everyone should have had to pull their own weight. I was glad the Hill thought the same thing.

TampaJacket
03-19-2009, 02:07 PM
Just a minute....

Did anyone stop to think these FSU comments were made tongue-in-cheek? Does anyone really think these comments were serious -- I mean would anyone admit publically to such a scheme before it was hatched. Get real, guys.

And if anyone around here thinks that athletic cheating incidents only occur at other schools, all I can say without naming names is that my own direct experience while at GT suggests otherwise.

We will now return to your regularly-scheduled lynch mob....

gth816f
03-19-2009, 02:11 PM
So let's add F$U and cheating to the things that folks are going to defend against criticism. They'll fit right in with the AUC.

I said right in my post that just because others were doing it doesn't make it any less of a violation. But some people are making it out like FSU's players were doing some reprehensible thing, when really they were just doing what many other normal students do. You can say that Tech works hard to detect cheaters, but if you don't think there is a significant amount of cheating going on by normal students and by athletes, then you are simply naive.

BuzzCzar
03-19-2009, 02:29 PM
Just a minute....

Did anyone stop to think these FSU comments were made tongue-in-cheek? Does anyone really think these comments were serious -- I mean would anyone admit publically to such a scheme before it was hatched. Get real, guys.

And if anyone around here thinks that athletic cheating incidents only occur at other schools, all I can say without naming names is that my own direct experience while at GT suggests otherwise.

We will now return to your regularly-scheduled lynch mob....

are you brain dead? look at the context where they were made and you comments seem crudely out of place... plus its the PRESIDENT of FSU, not the AD, not some coach or booster, the Head of University; i think you are brain dead

Allen Koholic
03-19-2009, 02:34 PM
Just a minute....

Did anyone stop to think these FSU comments were made tongue-in-cheek? Does anyone really think these comments were serious -- I mean would anyone admit publically to such a scheme before it was hatched. Get real, guys.

And if anyone around here thinks that athletic cheating incidents only occur at other schools, all I can say without naming names is that my own direct experience while at GT suggests otherwise.

We will now return to your regularly-scheduled lynch mob....I assume Wetherell was trying to make a case that the coaching staff completely blameless here. Which they aren't. They recruit thugs, put them into garbage courses and use kids as nothing more then money printing machines for their football team. It would be one thing if this was an isolated incident, but FSU has had problems with discipline for years.

On top of that, he and St. Bobby are crying about the "harsh" penalties they got, when they should have had the hammer dropped on them. They're acting like babies and whining like the NCAA is being unduly mean in handing out punishment, when in reality, they got a slap on the wrist.

TechSBP
03-19-2009, 02:37 PM
Just a minute....

Did anyone stop to think these FSU comments were made tongue-in-cheek? Does anyone really think these comments were serious -- I mean would anyone admit publically to such a scheme before it was hatched. Get real, guys.

And if anyone around here thinks that athletic cheating incidents only occur at other schools, all I can say without naming names is that my own direct experience while at GT suggests otherwise.

We will now return to your regularly-scheduled lynch mob....

Of course I know they were tongue and cheek. But that indicates two things:

1) He thought his tongue and cheek proposal, if carried out, was no more wrong than what F$U did.

2) He doesn't take cheating seriously.

TechSBP
03-19-2009, 02:42 PM
IBut some people are making it out like FSU's players were doing some reprehensible thing, when really they were just doing what many other normal students do.


They were doing something reprehensible. It is called cheating. That's what I said earlier, and this is your response?

Cheating is indefensible. It is reprehensible. It is disgusting. Especially when it is repeated after the initial, inevitable, mistakes--which people should learn from.

Your posts defend cheating because everyone does it. I don't care how many people do it. It is never acceptable. It is always reprehensible.

We disagree on whether cheating is okay or wrong. It's the internet, what do you expect--people to stop arguing about minutiae?

But I'll put it this way: the more success I've had in life, the fewer academic cheaters I've met at each successive level (massive jerks, sociopaths, idiot savants, etc., are a different story, but I'm lawyer--what can you do).

What enrages me about this story, more than anything, is that F$U's president seems to embrace cheating and fails to recognize it is a problem, instead of simply criticizing the numerous, I'm sure, errors in the NCAA actions.

TampaJacket
03-19-2009, 02:44 PM
are you brain dead? look at the context where they were made and you comments seem crudely out of place... plus its the PRESIDENT of FSU, not the AD, not some coach or booster, the Head of University; i think you are brain dead

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. :)

However, I've seen all too many times that someone says something in a completely cynical tone that is reported and interpreted as serious or in a way that it wasn't intended. I suspect that is the case here, and the writer of the story even alluded to it here:

"Wetherell wasn’t finished, though. Moments after referring to small, Baptist college as a “[dipstick] school,” he used an elaborate hypothetical story involving Florida quarterback Tim Tebow. The story was meant to illustrate Wetherell’s disdain for the way the NCAA handled some aspects of its ruling regarding FSU’s academic fraud case."

If that makes me brain dead, then I am guilty as charged, and so is the author.

Take care...Mike

TechSBP
03-19-2009, 02:48 PM
Y
However, I've seen all too many times that someone says something in a completely cynical tone that is reported and interpreted as serious or in a way that it wasn't intended. I suspect that is the case here.



When you are a University president, this is not a mistake you can make. He should've known better. Who knows, maybe he was drunk?

TampaJacket
03-19-2009, 02:50 PM
I assume Wetherell was trying to make a case that the coaching staff completely blameless here. Which they aren't.

With all due respect, Mr. Koholic, you are ASSUMING things about a discussion that you weren't present for.

Furthermore, I'm not sure how you make the jump that the coaching staff is somehow responsible for players cheating -- did they help them cheat and/or were they aware of it before this story broke? From what I understand the answer to both those questions is "no", so I'm not sure how you drew the conclusion you did.

Does FSU have a less-than-stellar record when it comes to off-the-field incidents? Of course.

Has the way that FSU has dealt with these issues in the past affected how players will act? Probably.

Am I ready to draw the conclusion that the coaches were somehow responsible for this cheating incident? Given what I've read, not a chance.

Then again, I'm a fairly logical guy...and I try not to presume things when it comes to assigning blame/guilt.

Respectfully...Mike

gth816f
03-19-2009, 03:03 PM
We disagree on whether cheating is okay or wrong. It's the internet, what do you expect--people to stop arguing about minutiae?

Actually, I think I muddled my message a bit. I was originally talking to the person who said that they might not be college material if they needed to cheat in an online music course. My point was that many people(geniuses, intelligent people, and dumb people alike) cheat in college, especially in courses not related to their major, which I would assume was the case with the music class. This probably wasn't a case of FSU recruiting players too dumb to pass a music class without cheating. It was more of a case of FSU not being able to get their players to understand that they have to be more careful with EVERYTHING they do because they are football players and they have a microscope on them that normal students don't.

You're right, all that doesn't mean it's not reprehensible. That's a different discussion and one that everyone would probably have varying degrees of opinions on.

BuzzMD
03-19-2009, 03:32 PM
Not only the Tebow line, but calling a small college a "dipstick" (and he did not say dipstick) school is unacceptable. I am sorry if the Tebow was tongue in cheek, but so far Samford needs a public apology.

BuzzCzar
03-19-2009, 03:55 PM
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. :)

However, I've seen all too many times that someone says something in a completely cynical tone that is reported and interpreted as serious or in a way that it wasn't intended. I suspect that is the case here, and the writer of the story even alluded to it here:

"Wetherell wasn’t finished, though. Moments after referring to small, Baptist college as a “[dipstick] school,” he used an elaborate hypothetical story involving Florida quarterback Tim Tebow. The story was meant to illustrate Wetherell’s disdain for the way the NCAA handled some aspects of its ruling regarding FSU’s academic fraud case."

If that makes me brain dead, then I am guilty as charged, and so is the author.

Take care...Mike

hey, didnt really mean to be insulting, but i am not really saying that it wasnt tongue in cheeck, just not the right thing to be tic about.

also, if the publicist had to sit him down to tell him to shut up then there is obviously a problem

sorry to come on so stronly before...

TampaJacket
03-19-2009, 04:42 PM
No worries, brother. We can all get heated from time to time, and our tone often doesn't come through in writing. :)

Clearly the FSU pres put his foot in his mouth. I just don't think it was quite as big of a deal as some are making it, and I suspect that our long-lived hatred for all that FSU stands for has gotten the better of our objectivity.

But that's just me and YMMV.

Respectfully...Mike

TampaJacket
03-19-2009, 04:43 PM
Not only the Tebow line, but calling a small college a "dipstick" (and he did not say dipstick) school is unacceptable. ... but so far Samford needs a public apology.

I agree. His comments were uncalled for.

That said, have you ever been to the Samford campus? It is rather dipstick-like. ;)

TampaJacket
03-19-2009, 04:47 PM
When you are a University president, this is not a mistake you can make. He should've known better. Who knows, maybe he was drunk?

Maybe. However, if I had to guess, the pres is between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, the FSU football program generates a huge amount of revenue and publicity for the university. On the other hand a cheating scandal hits to the core of what FSU is really -- a center for higher education. He's likely feeling immense pressure, and cracked a bit in the press conference.

While I will not really defend his position, I can certainly understand why something like that might happen.

Respectfully...Mike